Transcript:

Vinita: “If the children don’t behave properly, then we just slap them hard. Doing this is necessary. How else will they learn?” This, in terms of rights of children and rights of adults, what does it mean? Because when you face injustice you don’t feel it here. You feel it here. It’s in your gut, you feel it. Nobody has to tell you that “you have been treated poorly”. You know that you have been treated poorly.

Aishwarya: The concepts of citizenship and participation are nothing new. But they are being increasingly discussed these days. Being a citizen is not just about living in a certain place.

It’s about people’s rights, their relationship with their governing bodies, and the relationship with the nation. It is these kinds of nuances that we hope to explore in this conversation series  ‘Impact Dialogues’, where we sit with changemakers, exploring stories and ideas, with their experience in working with people and communities for a better tomorrow.

Meet Vinita Gursahani Singh.

Through her organization, “We, The People Abhiyan”, she works with citizens and communities to help them understand their constitutional rights and responsibilities.

Thanks for joining us, Vinita. I want to understand how active citizenship works on an individual level.Because this is an increasingly individualistic world. It’s about me, myself, and I. And that’s usually the case. But the problem is, with inculcating active citizenship, it has to be at a communal level is what I imagine. Because not everyone can be Greta Thunberg. Not everyone can come out with banners, for days on end, and then eventually hope that someone will come and help you and then become a community.That is just not possible. And it’s not realistic either. And governance can’t be a federal responsibility,it can’t be on federal bodies alone. It has to be a community-driven action. So, the kind of work you do at “We, The People Abhiyan”, do you train people at an individual level and then hope that it translates into collective action? How does that work?

Vinita: Actually, it works at all the three angles. And I totally agree that the community is extremely important. But at the same time, the individual is also very important. I’ll give you an example of William. William is one of the people that we’ve been working with. He’s come in for many of our training programs, and he actually is working on women empowerment in the community a lot. He works in Jharkhand, in villages, helping people, especially women, find their voice.

In our trainings, it’s usually a deep dive into what actions we can take as active citizens. And an important part of those actions is what you can do to live those values at an individual level. When those reflections came up, William shared later that when it came to a choice of who’s going to work. He actively discouraged his wife. Because there was his mother who had to be taken care of, there were the children to be taken care of. So when the opportunity presented itself, it was a situation that, you know, how it works.

You sort of say, “I think someone has to take care of the kids so you should-”

Aishwarya: Sneakily.

Vinita: No, not exactly ‘sneakily’, but if you look at it like this, then it may seem that way. But he loved her. So that’s not the case. But you know how it all works.

Aishwarya: Patriarchy.

Vinita: Yes. But this man was actually working against patriarchy. He actively believed that women need to be empowered, and was doing a lot for that. But when it came to this fear of his family, and himself, it helped him understand that he was not living these values.That he himself was… Somewhere all these belief systems that work on you for a very long time, they submerge the values you want to stand on. So during the training, it became eminently clear to him that he had not lived those values, when it came to the relationship between his wife and himself. And primarily himself. So the individual is critical.

Real change actually happens when I realize that I am the person who’s perpetuating a violation of values. And we do that. In that whole, We, the People of India, there’s that “I”, right. So active citizenship is about living values, with myself, with the community and the state. So I think we look at it like that. But the community is critical. Because while the individual is important, so is the community.

Aishwarya: True. What ended up happening to him and his wife? I’m curious.

Vinita: Well, he actually went back home, and he talked with her and she said “Great, I’m applying tomorrow.”

Aishwarya: Lovely. That’s what we like to hear.

Vinita: It’s not just William. It’s also a conversation between me and my husband. And sometimes I think that ‘The child needs me more.’ But is that me living my values? Or is it 30 years of hearing what-

Aishwarya: Conditioning.

Vinita: Yeah, right. So it’s not that. I can’t say it’s black and white, that William is a good man or a bad man. No, it’s about your awareness. As an active citizen, every sphere is a chance for you to live those values of equality, liberty, and justice. And only when I live it, and I enable others to live it is when your nation is going to live it.

Aishwarya: Again, in that line of thought, the Constitution has been around for so long.

Vinita: 75 years.

Aishwarya: But we are still not aware of our rights. There are so many people who still don’t understand what it means to be a citizen of this country, let alone an active citizen.And what I see is that there is also a problem of language.We don’t understand it, then how can we access it? What is that like in your experience? How do you see that in light of whatever work you have done?

Vinita: You’re absolutely right. So I’ll say there are two things here. One is that yes, the language is difficult. Many of us can’t read and write. And then to look at something and its termsand etc. it is not an easy prospect. So, the most important thing that at least we do at “We, The People” is to be able to simplify this.

How do these structures work? What is the government agency supposed to do?Where is it written what they’re supposed to do? Fundamental rights have to make sense in my life. So we use a lot of case studies to be able to connect a fundamental right to my everyday experience. So certainly, and not just at “We, The People Abhiyan”, a lot of us need to simplify the mechanisms of the Constitution.

But to me, the most powerful and simple aspect of the Constitution is its first page.

Aishwarya: The preamble.

Vinita: Which is the preamble. It’s actually a ‘vision and values’ document. It talks about feelings and sentiments and spirit and what it means to be a citizen of this country. That’s where everything comes alive. So we use that one page a lot. And I actually think your office should have the preamble.

Everybody should have the preamble to be able to look at it because it speaks to you. It talks to you as “We the people”, so who are these “we the people”? It is us. And its language is something that we can relate to. So creating relationships with what’s in the Constitution, and simplifying it is a very important thing that “We, The People Abhiyan” does in its trainings. But also I think all of us should be doing that.

Then it becomes our document. The other thing that we do is, for example, in the training people write applications. That this road is bad. Or we don’t receive ration on time. The teachers don’t show up in school, etc. etc. When we draft applications to draw attention to that issue.

Through the training, we encourage that in the application. There should be a referencing of the fundamental right. So, which right is linked to the request “teachers should come to school”? Which right is it? Which article is it? Which article actually enables you to say that “a teacher should be coming to school”?

Some of the community leaders we worked with, they put in their applications that this goes against Article 21. They actually put it down there.

And it suddenly gets a language that speaks to people, including the officer who was going to take your-

Aishwarya: Also gives it legitimacy in that way because we value logic a lot.

Vinita:  I think there’s another aspect to it. There’s the whole aspect of ‘understanding

the Constitution and living it.’ Babasaheb Ambedkar clearly said 75 years

back, that it is something that has to be cultivated.

And if you ask any farmer, what does ‘cultivation’ mean?First comes the plowing, the whole land has to be turned upside down. Then you sow the seed. It’s a process of cultivation. In 75 years, have we cultivated enough? Have we listened to those words of Ambedkar enough? And even if we live, listening to it now, it means the next 100 years should be spent on helping people understand the Constitution.

Aishwarya: You work a lot with the youth. And you have 28 years of experience in the

same. Do you see if there’s a difference in the way that this generation is reacting to the nation and its issues? How do they perceive it? And is there any difference?

Vinita: There is a lot of difference. I think young people today are so articulate. They read, and look, and talk to a lot of people, and get information from many different sources. They are far more aware of their rights. They stand up a lot more for themselves.

I’m looking at you.

So yes, there’s a big difference. Let’s say younger people earlier and now. We were also, I think, limited by the amount of information we could get. Today I just google up “the Constitution of

India”, I’m just saying because that’s my favorite topic.

If you just google “the Constitution of India”, and you have the whole Constitution in front of you.

This was not the case in our times. You want to look at a case of child molestation and how the Supreme Court ruled on it. You can simply look up “child molestation Supreme Court cases”.  You have all the Supreme Court cases on it.

This resource that we have today, that young people have today. This didn’t exist back then. So they are far more informed and articulate today. I think, speaking from the conversation wehad earlier, that there are so many things now. But transformation, real nation building,change, real change, comes from focusing and working on that issue.You know how it goes, “commitment to that issue”. That I see that there are so many things to commit to.

What to do then? I’m just connecting it back with what I said earlier, that if we want real change to happen, then young people today will have to examine their commitment. What are you committing to? Do. And that means a whole lot of things.Not just saying up on social media, but going out, meeting people, talking to people who are affected.

Being there on the field, talking to patriarchal uncles and aunts and others. And then finding the tools to help them engage better. It involves difficult conversations.And now of course, then it means that you have to be enthusiastic about it.

Aishwarya: Enthusiastic about it and also resilient. You can’t give up. Absolutely. But you have to take different routes. “You know this is wrong. But here’s an alternative way of looking atit. Because if you only criticize then you will not get the response that you hope for.You need to give them another way of thinking and then hopefully it sticks.

Vinita: Yeah So I would just say you got so many things going, young people today. Just commit.

Aishwarya: Okay. Noted.  You know, human rights are talked about a lot. And when we think of the Constitution, it’s very basic, right? That we should know this. But I’m curious, what made you create “We, The People Abhiyan”? Because while the conversation is important, it is also that this is obviously the way it should be.  What stuck, that made you create this organization, to now doing the work that you’re doing?

Vinita: So I think that’s the thing. Human Values. Human rights are extremely basic. This is why they are called fundamental rights or basic rights. Because when you face injustice you don’t feel it here. You feel it here. It’s in your gut, you feel it. Nobody has to tell you that “you have been treated poorly”. You know you have been treated poorly.  So it’s as basic as that. So you stay with that feeling, you work on that feeling. And I worked with that feeling for a longtime. I had been an active citizen before all this, that “what is an active citizen?” I didn’t even know it.

I saw something happening, I felt that it was wrong and so I used to work on it.And that’s exactly how the journey went for me. I think it was much later in my life where I actually joined the dots between what I was feeling and the framework that was offered to me by the nation, by the Constitution. That this feeling of injustice or inequality has a space and it has a remedy that is provided to us as a clear national vision. That this country will be one where we will be securing to everybody equality, liberty, justice, and promoting fraternity. It’s so obvious, sometimes I think “what do you mean by that?”

But it was my friend Seema, who’s a lawyer and did a lot of legal training. We sat in one garage in Sheikh Sarai in Delhi. And I said to her, “How do we have more people feeling the way we do but also working the way we do?” She just took me through the preamble and I thought to myself that all that I was doing was not as a social worker. Somehow, these social workers are a separate set.

But the Constitution is asking every citizen to be like that. And that to me, in that moment, felt very empowering. I felt like I can use this structure. And this was after about 20 years of working in the development sector. And if I, as an active citizen didn’t understand the power of the structure, I felt there were many of my friends who maybe didn’t. So “We, The People” started as an organization or as a space, where many of my friends from the development sector. We sort of reconnect with the power that has been given to us by the Constitution. And not just the issue, but the power that is available to us to address that issue. The whole provisions of the Constitution and law.

And the second thing is that this shouldn’t be about social workers alone.It should be about everyone. How does everyone understand the power that we’re sitting on? So that is how “We, The People Abhiyan” got started.And we started working with civil society organizations, and young people. Sometimes just taking that one page. But sometimes going through the entire constitution, different articles, to help people connect those articles with that injustice that youare facing. And find the language to be able to speak about it and ensure action happens. So that’s what happened. Aishwarya: Everyone should have a friend like Seema.

Vinita: I’m happy to be your friend.

Aishwarya: My honor. And sit in Sheikh Sarai in one garage and then talk.

Vinita: We can do that.

Aishwarya: Your work aligns with multiple SDGs. But the one that I would like to talk about is SDG-10, ‘reduced inequality’. How does constitutional awareness align with this one? Because ‘reduced inequality’ makes sense, but exactly how does it do it? So when self help groups, the community that we were working with, understood, for instance, gender by the lens of gender. There were several things that were practiced that were unequal. They were not able to have the same opportunity as men. And they were working very hard to address that. Pointing that out, writing applications to officials saying that “there is a difference in even the remuneration provided by the government.” While all that happened, one very interesting question that came up in our training, and it has stayed with me, was “how women treat their own children?” I don’t know how it came up.

But when it came up, because you also discussed children and this is one of the conversations.  It came up that, “If the children don’t behave properly then we just slap them hard. Doing this is necessary. How else will they learn?” Okay, quite typically.

Aishwarya: I’ve had my fair share of those.

Vinita: This in terms of rights of children and rights of adults, what does it mean? So the conversation at that time between how we treat our children opened up a whole lot of discussion around different aspects of equality. And how we practice it, and what we can do to actually see whether we are doing the right thing or not. And all this relates to reducing inequality. Because the more we become aware of the different aspects of inequality, and the more we work on that, the more we are actually addressing that particular SDG-10. So this is, in fact, something that made me also realize a lot about how I treat my children.

I have a boy and a girl. When I talk about inequality, I talk about my sense, my right to equality. But what does it mean with these two and my interactions with them? Active citizenship helps us get a lens on everything that we do, and helps us explore This action of mine…Is it furthering equality? Or am I actually going back and serving inequality? And so in that sense, there’s a complete alignment with the work that we do and with an SDG-10.

Aishwarya: We talked about social media and the role that it plays, but I want to focus on traditional mainstream media as well. For example, we had a movie called Rang De Basanti. And it was about a problem. It was about corruption. And it roused the audience so much that an issue that was ongoing at that time, got a lot of  support. People started protesting against the issue, because they were inspired to do so because of Rang De Basanti. How do you see that playing out? Do you see if that has any importance? Of course, it’s important, but where do you hope to see this traditional media going further in the future with this kind of cinema?

Vinita: Mainstream media, especially films like Rang De Basanti, can impact a whole generation of people. It’s an extremely powerful medium for change. It helps people reflect. It’s a very powerful medium, it draws people. So what I would actually want is that producers, filmmakers of media, traditional media, ask themselves this question: when you’re telling a story, are you enabling people to walk alone equality, liberty, and justice? Or are you actually helping them violate it? That’s the question all of us should be asking. I think that traditional media, especially films, should be asking that question of themselves. Mainstream media has to tell their stories. It’s important, that’s what they are for. They must tell a story that sticks in your head. I would say active citizenship demands of them, to ask that question, what is the story that you’re telling, and what do you want people to go out with? Is it furthering human values of equality,liberty, justice, fraternity? Or is it actually asking and inspiring people to otherwise?

How are you using your power, is the question. How am I using my power as an active citizen? Am I realizing that along with my rights there are responsibilities, to live and walk the talk of these values? So yes, films have a huge impact. Article 15, came out recently, and it’s a story that has really expanded the conversation around caste. It is no longer something that a certain section of society keeps talking about. It was something that all of us were talking about, everyone. So movies or films like that have the power to enable conversations. Now the question is, with that power comes your responsibility, right?

And the responsibility for them as active citizens, for directors, producers, actors, etc., is the same as our responsibility. Which is, are we furthering our human values of equality, liberty, justice, and promoting fraternity? Are you doing that? Or are you taking people behind? That’s for us to all think about.

Aishwarya: Cinema can do it. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us Vinita. It has been an incredible conversation, and I’m sure that our audiences will agree. I look forward to speaking with you more. Through this medium, we hope that this message gets across. It’s been an absolute blast.

Vinita: Thank you so much.

Aishwarya: We spoke to Vinita about active citizenship and the various nuances that it is accompanied by.  And we also understand that there’s so much more for us to explore and so many more stories for us to tell. We will remain steadfast in our commitment to bring these stories to you. But we would also love to hear from you. What did you think of the conversation? What do you think active citizenship is? Let us know.

Thank you.